Ronan Farrow Youve Done It Again

The yr's best spy thriller is stranger — and more than horrifying — than fiction. In Grab and Kill, Ronan Farrow expands on his reporting of the sexual assault allegations confronting Harvey Weinstein and others, while also telling his story of unraveling shocking conspiracies, from Hollywood to D.C. He weaves a incoherent narrative every bit compelling as it is disturbing.

Farrow'southward tale includes spies following him and others under covert names; evidence shredding; and death-threats popping up on cellphones. Silent alliances seem to form between the alleged predators he'southward reporting on, and his bosses at NBC ostensibly supporting him. The book ends with a bombshell of an allegation of sexual set on against Matt Lauer, by the woman whose initial report helped pb NBC to fire the at present-disgraced Today anchor.

Information technology'south not on shelves until Tuesday, simply Grab and Kill is already the best-selling book on Amazon, a spot it held onto for much of the weekend. Information technology has inspired a lengthy letter from Lauer, in which he strongly denies any and all allegations of non-consensual sex. And as it's peppered with dozens of names of powerful men who've faced downward allegations of sexual misconduct over the by few years — everyone from Weinstein to Lauer to actor Jeffrey Tambor to President Donald Trump to Farrow's father, Woody Allen — information technology rather bracingly exposes the rot that's persisted beyond elite American institutions for decades. (All of these men listed have denied claims of sexual misconduct.)

At the starting time of October, Ronan spoke to EW from Los Angeles for an extensive conversation touching on the book's revelations, style, and closing bulletin. Catch and Kill is available for pre-social club.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: I wanted to start by discussing the hoopla around the book apropos reported threats from Dylan Howard and Matt Lauer, who you expose with rather severe allegations in the volume. Given that, do yous experience nervous at all about the book coming out?
RONAN FARROW: Every story I report, there is a playbook that gets used to try to get ahead of it and that frequently includes legal threats against either whoever is publishing the story or me personally, or both. It often includes spin in the printing and the manipulation of tabloid pages. I wouldn't say that I've get allowed to that. I'g man, and it's stressful and scary. Powerful interests maxim they are going to wipe you out is not a fun experience. Merely when you accomplish a bespeak in the reporting similar where I am with the Catch and Kill reporting, where you really have wrapped your artillery around the whole thing and done an incredible corporeality of due diligence and fact checking, yous know that it's bulletproof, with receipts, if you will, you just forge ahead and attempt to filter out the dissonance.

Describe the fact checking and vetting process for me and what you did day-to-day to make sure that this book was iron-clad.
I was incredibly fortunate to have Sean Lavery who is ane of the earth'south best fact-checkers today, and was a senior checker at The New Yorker. He vetted this book actually exhaustively. That meant 10, 11, 12-hour calls where we summarized every single matter nigh every single person…and actually heard out every response and made sure that whatever fourth dimension there was a response that should exist included in the book for fairness, that it [was] in there, that every dash was captured and anything that is in the book is backed up by really hard evidence.

Allow's go into the anchor of this book which is a very damning, if nuanced, portrait of NBC. As you went about compiling this book and all of your reporting, how did that sally for you equally a primal story?
I had merely come up off of the feel of spending a twelvemonth reporting on the corporate civilisation at CBS, and that was the case where yous had a lot of very serious allegations abaft a number of executives in a chain of commands at a company. Yous had a lath and a set up of executives who were aware of problems and covering them up, and you had a blueprint of corporate practices including settlements that were being used to sweep a problem nether a rug rather than address it.

I come up at all of my reporting with a perspective of loving and caring about the free press and the journalists who bang their heads confronting the wall trying to crack open tough stories, and NBC is one of our great news institutions staffed by some of the best journalists I've worked with. I honey the reporters there, and they've been incredibly supportive in rallying effectually this book in many cases becoming sources for this book, and I call up really anticipating it in a positive way because of the closure of some of the important reporting that is in this book. I do retrieve that if you expose some of that rot, you can commencement a real conversation about a reform that opens up the space wider for people to feel safer in a workplace, for journalists to produce more than tough stories, and if they intersect with things that a company has covered up in the past, and that but takes sunlight on the problem.

This book is written in first-person, which we'll get into more afterwards, but I constitute information technology particularly interesting in terms of your feelings about NBC as well. You learn some disturbing things about your bosses and colleagues, and it becomes clear in the book that many are trying to halt your reporting. Yous mentioned the respect for the people y'all have there, only there is also the fact that yous worked there before they informally let you lot go. Virtually the very end of the volume you say, "I just wanted my job dorsum." There are these parallel stories of what you are reporting, the severity and gravity of it, and how yous're squaring it within your own career and your own journey.
From the commencement, I wanted this book to fully capitalize on the medium of beingness a volume. I wanted the reporting to be as ironclad and bulletproof every bit any New Yorker slice that I've washed, and it is. But that is under the surface. I wanted the reading experience to exist narrative and compulsive and immersive in a manner that books can be, and shorter-form magazine or newspaper writing can't as easily. My hope is that in doing that, this allows of import and careful reporting to get to a unlike and wider audience and to exist experienced in a unlike and perchance more than empathetic way. Seeing me follow that trail of clues and being behind the scenes, [this] unvarnished picture of the struggles those sources went through, volition maybe empower the side by side journalist in a similar low point or the next source that is struggling with that conclusion. I wanted to put people in my shoes and put information technology in their shoes in only a fashion a book can.

It also at times reads like a 18-carat spy thriller. This meeting between spies introduces the book with this fascinating genre-feel, and the narrative is pretty propulsive. And then you have baroque code names, a constant sense of being followed, newspaper shredding, all integral to the story. Did it feel like you were really living it, or did that come through as you were putting the book together?
It did feel like I was in some kind of a "cloak and dagger" espionage plot as the reporting was playing out. Information technology was only when I got the underlying documents and got people to offset fessing upward to the fact that that conspiracy was real that I realized…that if y'all are wealthy enough and connected enough you tin literally construct a movie style spy thriller operation to fissure down on reporters. I actually thought that not merely was information technology in the Dna of story — that information technology had this genre feel — but besides it was important to make that link, because code names and false identities and honeypots are all well and good in a Dashiell Hammett novel, merely they aren't the kinds of tactics that should exist thrown at free printing in this land.

You talk a lot well-nigh how in your New Yorker reporting, information technology was really important that you were not the story and that the women'due south experiences were centered. Apparently, the book is a different format and medium, merely you are really the story here. Were you reluctant to make that shift?
The reason why I did make it personal is because I felt similar I had to. Both things are true: I worked very, very hard. You lot can see me dodging and weaving…for a long time to go along the focus on the underlying allegations and the underlying stories. Just I was constantly possessed by tough questions from tough, smart journalists; as [I quote] Stephen Colbert in the book [from our interview], "Part of the story is why these stories don't become told, and you lot experienced that, and you lot are not answering questions nigh it." It was a humbling moment where I had to catch myself and realize my major fearfulness near e'er beingness the eye of attention — I had to reassess that.

The conclusion I drew was that I was right to have a period of time where the national conversation could exist about those allegations, but also that Colbert and all these other journalists who grilled me about this were right too. I needed to literally take two years to do careful reporting to go out that story about the story. In a style information technology's just as of import, because we're at this time where the press is and so embattled, and at that place's this authoritarian rhetoric getting weaponized confronting us. Trustworthy, fair reporting is the lifeblood of democracy. We need that and a certain admiration for all the reporters to do it. I promise that in telling my story and the story of the machine that got revved up to kill reporting in those years that I chronicled will be less about me, because it has to be in social club to tell that story, simply also a broader tribute to journalists and testaments to the importance of the liberty of the press.

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Permit's become into Matt Lauer's presence in this book. He pops up early on on, almost in signals to the reader to pay attending. Thinking back on those early interactions with him, where you lot'd bring up the thought of investigating sexual harassment in Hollywood and he sort of jumps, in your telling, did you get conscious of that later? What was that experience like reflecting on your interactions with him?
The book makes clear that the people around me who ultimately fix against the reporting were also people in other contexts I had liked and had good working relationships with. Matt Lauer was very much in that category. I promise it also conveys there that I looked up to him and hung on his every word in terms of advice on how to become the best broadcaster I could be, and was incredibly grateful for his mentorship at a time that was somewhat of a low point for me career-wise. People are complicated, and conspicuously he in item proved to have a lot of complications that I was not aware of at the time

Brooke Nevils tells you lot her story, that Matt Lauer allegedly sexually assaulted her, and I believe y'all granted information technology the most infinite and detail of whatever of the women'south stories in this volume. (Lauer strongly denies the accusation, while NBC denies it tried to encompass up Nevils' allegation.) It'south the finale of Take hold of and Impale in a lot of ways. Can you lot talk about that decision, structurally? I know the book is mostly chronological, simply it felt similar an important place in the book and narrative.
Brooke Nevils was incredibly dauntless in doing what she did. I think anyone who walks back into a company and says, "Hey, here's this bad thing that happened," even knowing as she really did at the fourth dimension, that it would upend her rights, it's someone that we should rise up and strive to protect. And like any sources in my stories, I regarded all her claims with maximum skepticism. I grilled her, we looked at all of the supporting documents and witnesses and actually fabricated sure this stuff was true, and equally you lot saw reading it, nosotros too go to pains to exist as off-white as we possibly could be with the limitations we had in terms of ground rules with parties involved. In terms of making certain Matt Lauer's thinking is reflected and all of the arguments that could possibly exist invoked in his defence force are in there.

I had no animus towards Matt or any of the people involved in that state of affairs. Literally just trying to get the facts right, and you're correct. It is explosive. She did get through a very traumatic situation that she alleges happened, and I think it'southward an of import story of why people should come up forward in these situations, because information technology can modify a corporate civilization. You asked most the positioning of information technology in the context of this book, and it's an of import part of the reporting for all the reasons that I just described. But it besides reflects that quondam T.S. Eliot line about returning the identify y'all started, and understanding it for the first time. I'1000 butchering it. [Laughs] But y'all get the thought.

You mentioned at the first of this interview that yous feel that yous finally wrapped your arms around "the whole thing." Why did this feel similar the place for this book to be completed? Considering you also know that the story is far from over.
The story is absolutely far from over, and the threats against the printing go along. Threats to the press can become an admittedly instrumental role of shutting downwardly a republic. It can literally become a life or death matter and thank God we're in a country where that is non the case. But I call up none of us can rest on our laurels. People are still deploying extreme tactics to kill stories. Media organizations are sometimes doing incredible work standing upward to that, and sometimes not. I felt that this was an important time to have this conversation about this reporting.

The serious plot threads in the book practice naturally culminate in those moments early this year: The NBC reporting comes to a head and there'due south that terminal settlement to sign with Brooke Nevils. The Black Cube reporting comes to a caput. It does exit the door open to all of that forward-looking conversation about, "Where is this going to go? How far are we going to go to protect the printing and the tough stories that need to be reported?"

One of the subtler elements of this that struck me was the implicit line drawn betwixt the way some powerful men allegedly assault or harass women, and the way some powerful men in your orbit talk about women — the latter is integral to the civilisation, but feels similarly violent. It gives a sense of a broader cultural problem. Can you talk near writing to that?
I do remember that this body of reporting…illustrates ii dynamics that were going on, 1 of which is a very specific plot where there were threats being held over people, and enticements beingness advanced to try to kill a story. The other [was] a cultural dynamic, which comes out in, as you lot say, multiple moments where people talked well-nigh women in a certain way, and moments where people talked about the reporting and its importance or non in a certain style.

Those moments where y'all have an executive in his early writings [arguing] that boozer girls going into a frat political party are asking for information technology. Some of these are in and of themselves not necessarily things that you would want to condemn someone for, and people'southward opinions [can] evolve and change. The book is very conscientious to allow for that, just I do retrieve they all inform this extra layer of what makes them vulnerable to those more specific plots that were being advanced. Namely, when you accept an all-male person chain of control and all of those men subscribe to a certain set of traditional views of what matters and what doesn't, you encounter this assumption that people volition just never care about reporting those types of crimes.

Y'all comb through various communications and discover that Harvey Weinstein essentially consulted your father, Woody Allen, for advice every bit y'all were reporting on him. That must accept been a fleck of a trip for y'all. How did that feel?
I concluded upward obtaining a ton of documents, recordings and other types of records. Reading through all of Harvey Weinstein's communications in that timeframe was a very intimidating feel. I was already aware from a legal threats I received — which I quote in quite a wholesome fashion — that in that location was this endeavour to personalize information technology and to use as a cudgel against the reporting things related to personal things virtually my past, which were in some cases demons I'd tried to outrun for years and years. And then that was a painful realization that had already happened. Only then months after, coming into all of these communications, and seeing the behind-the-scenes play-past-play of advancing that effort — including talking to Woody Allen — was less surprising and more, just, interesting. Information technology illustrates a) how far Weinstein was going to endeavour to attack this reporting, and how personal and below-the-chugalug he wanted those attacks to be, and b) that at that place is a sure kinship that he leaned on among men who have faced these kinds of allegations. He was asking, essentially, "What's the playbook? How exercise I deal with this?"

A personal narrative running through the volume is your human relationship with your sister, Dylan. You really wrestle with guilt over how you reacted to her allegations of sexual abuse against your father when you were younger.
One of the decisions I made [in writing this book] was that if I was going to introduce what I went through on a personal level, it couldn't exist a victory lap. It had to be bracingly honest well-nigh myself and I had to go to a vulnerable place to assistance people who are in a similar low bespeak or struggling with like issues sympathize how complicated that feels, and how hard it is to make the right choice. You're not even certain you're making the right choice at the time. part of that was, [one], confronting head-on the relationship with my sister and the fact that her allegations did inform my agreement, non in whatsoever way of what'southward specifically factually linked to the Weinstein case, but more than broadly to the importance of the issue. I wanted to be frank well-nigh the fact that I was one of those guys who told a woman in his life, "You should close up. This isn't worth the cost." It was a gradual and painful journey to come to an understanding that I was wrong and she was right, and that she was doing a brave matter, and that the culture and journalism needed more of that. I hope that personal story is helpful to people on both sides of those relationships. I've seen in just about every story I've reported about sexual violence that there are always those dynamics at play, that at that place is always a person in a source's life — maybe a man — saying, "Why didn't you just accept the like shooting fish in a barrel way out and shut upwardly?" I've been there.

Dylan too guides you through the reporting procedure and offers insight into her own experience of not beingness believed. How did you and her discuss her presence in the book?
We had a lot of detailed conversations about it. As with any other person who features in the book in a significant mode, she went through a fact-checking process. The veracity of those conversations and my notes on them were tested against her recollections independently. Also, every bit in all of those fact-checking calls, she had the opportunity to weigh in and say, "I'1000 not comfortable with this function." Specially for survivors of sexual violence, I really effort to make sure that there's an opportunity for them to shape how their experiences are existence portrayed. That doesn't mean I'm any less skeptical or rigorous, simply it does mean if someone feels something is intrusive and personal and doesn't desire it in…it is such an intrusive and personal subject thing. So the answer is yes: She did get to weigh in. She actually was great about it and was very embracing of the fact that I wanted to be raw and honest about the fights that we had. I hope the volume is a tribute to, in addition to the journalists who work on this, also to sources who are in the state of affairs that she was in, and struggling to speak. It was a really nice resolution to the story that her illustrations are in the book. I thought she killed information technology.

Does this feel like a closing of a chapter for yous, even if the story is ongoing?
That's an interesting question. The themes continue. The press is still embattled. The investigative reporting that speaks truth to power that a whole community of journalists are struggling to go out is more than of import than ever to the future of our land. There are still Harvey Weinsteins in industry after industry; at that place are still media organizations struggling with whether to run stories most them. I retrieve the bug are live. I promise and pray that I get the risk to continue to study on them. That's not simply with respect to sexual violence… related to abuse and malfeasance in corporations in all unlike types. That said, the book does bring full-circumvolve a lot of unanswered questions that both I and the public had when that story emerged in the way that information technology did. And likewise brings in a whole slew of new reporting that I call up sheds light on these really important, ongoing issues. I hope that it feels similar a satisfying end when people close that dorsum encompass. I really strived for that.

This interview has been edited and condensed

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Source: https://ew.com/author-interviews/2019/10/14/ronan-farrow-catch-and-kill/

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